Bootstrapped Giants

Jesse Pujji: [00:00:00]

Andrew Warner: Jesse, are you pumped? I feel like we've been doing these podcasts and you're not getting the energy. I want the Jesse energy so fired up. I that Jesse [00:00:09] can't wait for Andrew to come to St. Louis tonight. Not the ah, what happened,

Jesse Pujji: be pumped when you're in St. Louis, as long as you're,

Andrew Warner: you gotta be pumped. Always.[00:00:18]

Jesse Pujji: No,

Andrew Warner: Do you have a topic that you're especially pumped about?

Jesse Pujji: I don't know if I'm pumped about it, but I, but there's a really big thing happening in my life right now that [00:00:27] I feel like would be really interesting to start to unpack and. And think about

Andrew Warner: Ooh, personal or professional.

Jesse Pujji: That's kind of [00:00:36] everything, you know, I, um, you know, you know, I've been on this spiritual journey. Well, I, I, I started on what I [00:00:45] described as like a personal growth journey seven, eight years ago. That's kind of evolved into a spiritual journey and, you [00:00:54] know. The most recently this year I've started, you know, we, we didn't start a new business.

We didn't wanna start a new business this [00:01:03] year. Like I was really pumped to start a, a bunch of businesses in the beginning, and then it slowly started being like, ah, it just doesn't feel right anymore. Um. [00:01:12] And as you know, I came back from Japan and I've been like, you know, I'm, I'm trying to like limit, I'm trying to pull back a little bit and just get a little bit of time and space and, [00:01:21] you know, a lot of that's, uh, Dave, Dave and I were talking a, a month ago, maybe a few weeks ago, but he kind of gave this analogy of shifting [00:01:30] from the motorboat captain to the sailboat captain. Right. And you think about that metaphor for a second. It's like [00:01:39] most founders and, and I'm definitely this way. And this stuff gets pretty deep. Like my worthiness is like, oh dude, if like, if you need me to go sell, I can like get a bunch of [00:01:48] meetings. And like there was a time at ambush where anytime I felt nervous I would just send like 10 emails out to try to build pipeline or like hire it or like you just, you [00:01:57] motorboat, you're just like, I'm gonna get this done.

I'm gonna get this done, da da. Like, I like, and you know, given both I think where my energy is [00:02:06] personally, the business. Um. Transitioning to a sailboat captain, right? And, and like, what is a sailboat captain? It's, it's not, they don't do nothing, [00:02:15] right? They, they have to do something, but it's like they wait and then they, you know, they see the winds are going this way and they, they shift the sails a certain way and they, they're paying [00:02:24] attention to what's going on around them.

And, um, what I can tell you is like, it feels right to me, that metaphor, and it feels like that is the [00:02:33] transition that I'm wanting to make. Um. M my being, my essence wants to make that transition. But then, you know, we've talked [00:02:42] about, uh, IFS and no bad parts or, you know, CLG, but then I, then parts of me get really scared

Andrew Warner: Of.

Jesse Pujji: well, this is like, [00:02:51] it's uncomfortable.

Like, I don't know how to do it this way. Or what if it doesn't work or, um,

Andrew Warner: do you ever feel like, what if they're too stupid to do [00:03:00] it without me?

Jesse Pujji: Yeah. Not too stupid, but that's, that was not the

Andrew Warner: Incapable of doing it without me?

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, even that I, [00:03:09] it's not necessarily a negative on someone else

so much as it is like, oh, this would be so much better if I was involved, which, like the world that, you know, you know this from, [00:03:18] from my involvement in bg or like, everybody's like, oh, Jesse's involvement.

That helps. He joins a call and like it up levels, like he, he pushes on it. And so there is a thing, [00:03:27] like I was talking to this coach therapist that I work with locally. Yesterday and, and she's like, do you ha do you get a benefit from it? Like, [00:03:36] and I first told her no. And I think that's true. I don't, I don't feel like I need to be needed in that way, although I'm sure there's maybe some part of me that does, but it's much more of like a, [00:03:45] the chances of success go up if I am,

if I'm involved. But, but we're seeing in the businesses, I think, and you know, this too, is like, that's not always the case. And it's [00:03:54] also just become unsustainable. Like the, the first half year, my calendar, the first half of the year was unsustainable. And we did this thing as you know, that like [00:04:03] I, I did company per day. I think I told you this, but I would get to Wednesdays and I have my date nights on Wednesdays. And I would tell Dee like, I should take the next four days [00:04:12] off because I feel like I've worked five days already in three days time because every business was like, oh, this is my day and you guys do it

right. You [00:04:21] slam me with everything that day, but you're not alone. Ox will do it. And growth. And I was, I was talking to this, a lot of this also kicked off before Japan.

I was talking to a couple [00:04:30] friends who run HoldCo type things. And um, I was asking one of my friends who's, who's done really well with it, how often do you talk to employees [00:04:39] or customers of the businesses? And he looked at me like I was crazy. And he is like, what do you mean? [00:04:48] Never like, unless the CEO asks me to. I don't like the CEO gets the, gets the red, the green card to go, Hey, I need you [00:04:57] to talk to this customer. I need you to talk to the ceo. Otherwise, the, like, the setup is not set up. He's never talked. He's like, I talked to the CEOs. That's it. And so, I mean, his, he's definitely a [00:05:06] sailboat captain. Like you can tell the way he thinks about things.

And because he's also buying the businesses, which is a little different than what we

Andrew Warner: Who is it? Can you say their name? You didn't reveal anything.[00:05:15]

Jesse Pujji: eh, it's some guy, it's a guy who's bought a bunch of software companies.

Um. But anyway, it's, it's, it's a, it's been a pretty interesting, [00:05:24] very present kind of, again, journal in public sort of thing of like, what does it mean to be a sailboat captain versus motorboat?

What's the scariest [00:05:33] part for me? Um, and I think, by the way, I think it's relevant 'cause every, every leader has a version of this. You, there's a version of you where you [00:05:42] sometimes need to, all of us need to sometimes show up as a sailboat captain sometimes show up as a motorboat captain. And knowing when to do which one is really important.

And in my role, I'm probably more [00:05:51] sailboat e just 'cause of where I sit inside of all the things. But you're, but you're not all, when you, you know, you motorboat all the time, that's not always good either. There's times where you have to like the [00:06:00] wind of the sails, make a call, cut something, pull a, pull a rope, pull a string.

And I think it's just a really interesting topic to kind of unpack.

Andrew Warner: You know, [00:06:09] I'll say this, that I'll tell you how I feel about it. You are very much like active and involved, and you're big texter, which means like you're always [00:06:18] available and then suddenly you're saying, I wanna be removed from Slack and I don't want to know as much and I don't wanna be as included. And I'm [00:06:27] like.

Does he not like us anymore? Is this like the end of our friendship? Is this the end of the relationship? Is this, you know, and [00:06:36] that's a weird feeling to, to feel and I didn't know that you were going through that. And then the other thing is you had set us up with this [00:06:45] expectation that you are always on.

Like to the point where even nac, COO of Gateway X, when I would say I. I don't know that I should bring Jesse into [00:06:54] this. He goes, no, you should. This was last year. You should. He's your partner. You've gotta bring him in. And now I'm seeing the opposite and I'm wondering like, is it, is it [00:07:03] us? Is there something else?

What's going on?

Jesse Pujji: No, I, I think, I think the reality of it is, like, [00:07:12] I, I think the, like frac, the co-founder of a business makes sense that you're really involved, right? [00:07:21] Like, and, and the whole idea behind it was, I can get help, get it involved and get it off the ground faster, better, smarter, cheaper. And that's been true for every business. I think now that all the [00:07:30] businesses that are at a certain maturity level.

It started to feel like I was a fractional president of every bus or you know, for whatever you wanna call it, like some senior person who didn't necessarily have [00:07:39] reports but was like fractionally involved in each business. And I mean, dude coming back from Japan, my slack was a joke. Like the amount of channels I was [00:07:48] in and like at every level, like there was our CEO GX CEOs, that's not nobody that talking.

And then there's like detailed reporting. Then I'm in like a couple random growth assistant client [00:07:57] specific channels. Then I'm like, and I was just like looking at it. I'm like, oh, no wonder I've been like. My wonder in my head has felt so busy

Andrew Warner: Yeah.

Jesse Pujji: and I just don't think [00:08:06] it's, I think there was a time like in life when I felt really excited to be on those things and I don't, I just don't think I'm that excited.

Like I [00:08:15] think the call you and I had on Monday where you were freaking out about something and I was able to show up with love and coach

you, I was like, that's what I wanna spend my [00:08:24] time on. Like giving Vernon feedback on some specific tactical things. It's just not really what, like I really just don't wanna spend that much time on that stuff.

Not that I won't [00:08:33] do it, but like it definitely starts, it's starting to feel much more like zone of excellence to me than zone of genius.

Andrew Warner: Yeah.

Jesse Pujji: I'd say the same thing is true for all the [00:08:42] businesses. Like, uh, you know, being, with the exception of maybe s selling, which I still enjoy, especially if there's like big dollars [00:08:51] on the line.

I think there isn't. You know, like, I like doing our sales thing. I'll, I'll take a client call with GA or ox if there's a big [00:09:00] opportunity there, if it makes sense to do that. But even then, I don't wanna be super involved after that. But then other than that, it's like I wanna talk to the CEOs. Um, [00:09:09] I also, like, this doesn't happen much in bg, but in the other two businesses there's a lot of mommy daddy stuff that pops up that I think is like disruptive for the people and it's annoying for the [00:09:18] CEOs.

Uh.

Andrew Warner: What do you mean? Where like each side has a different opinion and now

Jesse Pujji: It's like, oh, growth assistant. Someone's like, wait, Jesse and Adrian, like, who do I listen [00:09:27] to Or do I have two? Like the, the last two sales leaders at at GA have both kinda said like, I felt like I had two bosses. And like, I don't really want people feeling that way.[00:09:36]

Andrew Warner: So then here's the thing that pops up for me. You is, is it that [00:09:45] you are not accepting who you are today, this year, the last two years. And so you last year took on a lot than this [00:09:54] year. You still took on more than you wanted to. Even when you said, I'm not gonna be in every business every day, I'm gonna give each business one day.

And now, is it that you, that [00:10:03] you are in a different place and you haven't come to accept it?

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, I think I'm evolving. I mean, I, I think I, I think two or three years ago I was, so, I had [00:10:12] not done anything new for 10 years and I was like, pumped with like, I wanna start, start

Andrew Warner: Hmm.

Jesse Pujji: this, start that. And now I'm like, you know, part of it, I, it's so [00:10:21] funny how naive we are 'cause I had forgotten how, what it takes to run a business. You gotta make hard decisions, you gotta kill things, you gotta like focus on [00:10:30] certain things. You gotta keep doing the same activity over and over and over again and. And running a, starting a business is way easier than running a business. [00:10:39] Right? I don't, well, anyway, but, but as we've gotten to a certain scale with all this stuff that's going on and there's, there's employees in [00:10:48] every business, it's not like there's not any gaps in the businesses.

I think for a long time the Gateway X team was filling in gaps everywhere, and it just doesn't, I don't feel like there's any gaps in the [00:10:57] businesses anymore. Um, but I think I'm also evolving, like, I think that's the whole thing is like having

gone through the spiritual thing, it's like. I don't,

Andrew Warner: Why do you keep [00:11:06] calling spiritual? And I must be crazy for not getting it because when people are responding to the email newsletter where you call this stuff spiritual, they connect with you. And when I think of [00:11:15] spiritual, I either think of religion, which structured or higher power. When you're talking about spiritual, it feels more like your own internal spirit is trying to come out like your [00:11:24] spirit animal.

Jesse Pujji: it's all one thing. Everything you just, all three things you just described are the same

Andrew Warner: Jesse, I would love for you. I I don't have a good answer 'cause you're gonna hate this. [00:11:33] I would love for you to, and I definitely don't want you to drink, I would love for you to have something the equivalent of Scotch with me, where you just say, this is my [00:11:42] whole worldview on what religion is and spirituality, because you come at it from this, have to find out what you are about underneath [00:11:51] this fake stuff and ego, there's a thing and it's not religion, it's something else.

And I don't know what that is, but it's, it's worth identifying. And [00:12:00] I don't know honestly

Jesse Pujji: don't, I don't think we need scotch. I mean, I mean, what, what can I explain to you?

Like,

Andrew Warner: don't smoke weed, so I can't get into that. I guess we just need to [00:12:09] do this. There's something underneath that we are get, that I am seeing that people are, are connecting with in the messages.

Jesse Pujji: uh, we've written about this, right? Like,[00:12:18]

Andrew Warner: I, I guess what I'm looking for is more of higher. What, who are you? So for you it's the spiritual part [00:12:27] of this is finding who you are, honoring it

Jesse Pujji: question. What are you,

Andrew Warner: Oh, what am I, I'm, I'm gonna give you the [00:12:36] most anal answer there is, and the most anal answer is, I'm an entrepreneur, I am a dad. I am an intense high energy [00:12:45] runner.

Jesse Pujji: Those are those first two things are things you do. They're like roles you play.

Andrew Warner: it, so what is like a, who am I that would allow me to come up with the kind of [00:12:54] clarity that you have,

Jesse Pujji: No, no. don't worry about me. Just who are you are? Well, lemme ask you a question. Are you your body?

Andrew Warner: Oh, I see what you mean. [00:13:03] If I had to say it, I would say I am my brain.

Jesse Pujji: You're your brain, but, but your brain can, is gonna exist the day you die. [00:13:12] Right?

Andrew Warner: Then I would say I would die. The day that I die. I get That's where, that's

Jesse Pujji: Who? Who's gonna die?

Andrew Warner: the brain, that is [00:13:21] Andrew.

Jesse Pujji: But the brain will still be there. Where will Andrew be?

Andrew Warner: Isn't Andrew completely gone once the brain is gone?[00:13:30]

Jesse Pujji: Well, but the, but my point to you is you're not your brain, right? 'cause your brain has a se a sense of cells. It's a bunch of cells and a tissue in, in your current, in your physical head.[00:13:39]

Andrew Warner: Uhhuh.

Jesse Pujji: day you die, it'll still be there. That tissue will all still be there. So like that can't be [00:13:48] you, right?

Andrew Warner: Then what am I if I'm not that? I, I just don't see any, I guess some people would [00:13:57] say, like my wife would say, we come back, we're reincarnated, we have this other path and all that, and

Jesse Pujji: Well, there's something in you. There's something in you, [00:14:06] right? That isn't your brain. It's, it's not your thoughts. You're not your

thoughts. Do you think you're your thoughts?

Andrew Warner: No, actually I've come [00:14:15] to realize I'm not, I'm, I'm some of them, I'm not. All of 'em. Or maybe some of them are expressing who I am and,

Jesse Pujji: Well, some of them you, you may choose to, to agree with.[00:14:24]

Andrew Warner: Okay.

Jesse Pujji: Like, one way I love to ask this question to people is like, have you ever thought you wanted to like kill somebody or pumble someone's face?

Andrew Warner: I haven't, but there's something like [00:14:33] that. That's not coming to me now, but yes. It's like this weird thing, right?

Jesse Pujji: Did you do it?

Andrew Warner: No.

Jesse Pujji: Well, if you were your thoughts, you would've done it right.[00:14:42]

Andrew Warner: Okay, so then who am who? What, what, what is, how does this get to the practical of

Jesse Pujji: But who are, but that this is [00:14:51] the, this is the gold of the question. Because when you start to peel at that que that onion, that question, you start to go, who am I?

Andrew Warner: So how do you answer [00:15:00] that? Who am I?

Jesse Pujji: well, I, I think that there is something inside of me. [00:15:09] Call it spirit. Call it consciousness. Call it

life. Some people just call it life energy. [00:15:18] That exists in my, in me. It also exists in you. It also exists in a tree. It also exists in a bug. And that energy like that is, that is, [00:15:27] uh, I am, that that is like, there's an energy there that's aliveness, that's conscious, that's aware. Um. That doesn't [00:15:36] exist in like a rock, or maybe it doesn't a rock, but maybe it doesn't exist in like this bottle. Right? Um, and there is something [00:15:45] distinct about something that is alive, especially a human being because human beings are aware of our alive, like the fact that we, we exist and there's an argument of whether or not animals or trees and [00:15:54] stuff are, but, um, but there's something inside of, of me. That is none of the, it's not what I look [00:16:03] like.

It's not the physical, it's not even my gender. It's just something else. And that, and that thing is the same thing that's inside of you, [00:16:12] that's inside your wife.

Andrew Warner: Just when I was with you, suddenly you say it's the same thing as inside my Alright.

Jesse Pujji: Well, is it? Hold on. Do, do we both breathe air to [00:16:21] stay alive?

Andrew Warner: yes. Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. It's not that we're the same creature or the same thing, it's just I have a thing. You have a [00:16:30] thing. So now what?

Jesse Pujji: Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. If you define us, if you define what I am as [00:16:39] awareness or consciousness, you also possess awareness or consciousness, right?

Andrew Warner: Okay.

Jesse Pujji: We both possess the same

Andrew Warner: I do.

Jesse Pujji: or we are made of the same thing.[00:16:48]

Andrew Warner: Okay.

Jesse Pujji: That's like when somebody says everything is one that oneness, that awareness, that consciousness. It's the [00:16:57] same awareness and consciousness

Andrew Warner: Okay.

Jesse Pujji: that that's where like it's the same thing. It it, it is the same thing. It's not that we, it's not that like [00:17:06] no, like, there actually is not any real disconnect between, there's this like, illusion of separateness, right?

That you're separate from me and I'm separate from you. But [00:17:15] the, the but underneath your face and my face and my name and your name and my thoughts and your thoughts, there's just this like alive energy. There's this [00:17:24] awareness that's, you know, that is in Sikhism and, and in a lot of eastern fates like that is God.

There's no God, there's no like God in the clouds, [00:17:33] who's judging people, whatever. There's just this energy force that's around us, this alive aliveness energy. It's the like energy of [00:17:42] creation, the energy of love, and it's. It's around us and with us, and, and that's, what it is.[00:17:51]

Andrew Warner: This was so much easier when I was living in New York and it was all about like how much money you have defines where you are, what you're building matters, and everyone else. [00:18:00] I don't know, falls in line number wise, it's a lot harder to try to grasp this, but I'm, I'm getting a little bit of this. Here's what I'm then

Jesse Pujji: of it is that, is that [00:18:09] when you, when you die, you don't take any of that stuff with you.

Andrew Warner: Yeah. But when I finish playing Monopoly, I don't get to take the little monopoly dollars with me, but I still enjoy it in the [00:18:18] moment,

Jesse Pujji: oh that, that's great if you enjoy it in the moment. But that's not what most people do in the moment, including yourself. You suffer, you [00:18:27] agonize over, oh my god, this business line's not gonna work. Oh, this is horrible. You miss the moment of your, of your kid laughing 'cause you're worried about 20 grand [00:18:36] in revenue. And, and so it's

not, it's not, the monopoly thing is true. If you truly could show up as life is a game and [00:18:45] it's, it is a, if I get in, you know, oh, it's a fun game. I'm gonna play it and then I'm gonna be done with it, and that's fine. I'm gonna enjoy it. Most people don't. We get, [00:18:54] we, we think we're on the board walking on Monopoly and we like, you know, you see someone who is playing a game, they use this analogy in spiritual talks all the time.

You see a little kid who's playing Monopoly [00:19:03] and is taking it so seriously, they start crying because. Because you bought the property in their third thing and you're

go, you can, you silly kid. What are you doing? This is just a [00:19:12] game. And that's what, you know, someone who's really spiritual says is like, hey a New York person.

All you care about is money and whatever. You're gonna leave the world empty handed. [00:19:21] There's no question about that.

Andrew Warner: Okay. So. I'm scratching at the surface of this understanding. How does it now [00:19:30] come back to you finding your way in business and understanding that last year you wanted to be super involved, then [00:19:39] 2025 comes around and you say, you know what? I think I'd like to have one day, and now you're evolving towards a sailing metaphor.

How does, [00:19:48] how does that understanding of who you are, lead you to make decisions like this?

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, I, I think one of [00:19:57] the, one of the most powerful shifts for me, and I, I'm by no means a hundred percent of this and great, you know, it's still a work in progress. [00:20:06] I'm, I'm a seven Enneagram, which is, you know, the, they have, the Enneagram is sorted into head types, heart types, and gut types. [00:20:15] And a head type means like my brain thinks through things.

That's how I process what's going on. And [00:20:24] back to this, this point of like, we're not our thoughts. One of the biggest shifts for me has been to like trust my energy even to like know my energy, know my [00:20:33] intuition, and then trust it versus the thoughts that go in my head. And for most of my life, I've been like, okay, this is. This is the right thing. Which job should I [00:20:42] take? Well, let me do the expected value. Let me do the analysis and let me choose that option. This rigor we talk about. And I think Mo, I think there's very few [00:20:51] decisions. You know, the big decisions have to be made based on energy and intuition. So for me, I think following what's getting me excited, what's energizing me has been a [00:21:00] really important sign and, and it has evolved.

It's not like I was doing, I was totally wrong where I was a year ago or three years ago. It's like there's different things guide. It's almost like there's something guiding [00:21:09] me. And I would, I would argue there's always been something guiding me. Um, I just didn't necessarily know it or was aware of it, but it's, but I'm becoming more aware of it and more [00:21:18] willing to go, oh, hey, this doesn't feel right.

I'm not gonna force myself to do this thing That doesn't feel like the thing I do. Just 'cause we said Gateway X is gonna keep starting new businesses. [00:21:27] If it doesn't feel, if I don't feel excited about it, if my energy's not like, I'm gonna tap into that intuition and listen to it.

Andrew Warner: So when we [00:21:36] reconnected and started talking about, at this point it might be close to two years. The thing that was driving you was being the [00:21:45] person who got to launch all these ideas that you wish you could have done back at ambush, that now you finally get to do it. If it's not that that's driving you, [00:21:54]

Jesse Pujji: Well, but I don't think, I don't think that's what was driving me. I think

you may have heard that and that made more sense to you. So you said, oh, that must be what's driving [00:22:03] him. I think what, what's driving me was like our call on Monday, it's like my ability to show up and, and help other people learn and grow and be [00:22:12] the best versions themselves.

And you know, this, this idea of being, know, the C-E-O-C-E-O, sort of like the coach's coaches coach, [00:22:21] um, and helping other people learn and grow and having that impact and having the trickle down of that impact on others. Um. [00:22:30] The, the what of the content of the businesses has never been all that important to me. It took me a long time to actually accept that.

Andrew Warner: But would you then [00:22:39] be, would you be energized running a business that just did? Okay. If you got to be a coach's coach of the CEO, that doesn't seem like a [00:22:48] Jesse, Jesse place to be.

Jesse Pujji: I, I just don't, part of what happens is it they, there's, you know, to be a coach's coach, [00:22:57] like. To be a good business person, you have to be rigorous. Like there's no way I can teach. I couldn't teach you how to be bus do business and do it in a way that was mediocre 'cause I'd be [00:23:06] doing you a disservice. Like standards are part of service, right? Like teaching someone how to be a badass com. Like so there's [00:23:15] almost no version of it where I think that would happen because if I'm being honest about serving somebody and teaching them stuff that I know, [00:23:24] then it's like. Right. It's, it's a, it's a little bit of this context versus content, uh, idea, but it's all, again, this, this sailboat concept of like the mo the [00:23:33] motorboat sailboat thing is, it's part of it.

It's like can you have a conver one conversation with someone that adjusts them and orients them versus 10 [00:23:42] different little things you do that that drive a person forward? And I think that's.

Andrew Warner: Okay, so then two things are coming to mind. The [00:23:51] first is, how did you get to this realization? And then the second is, what does it mean to lead a company as a [00:24:00] sailor versus a, what is it? A pilot of a motorboat. So how did you come to this realization?

Jesse Pujji: I mean, I, I think, [00:24:09] I think starting to tap into my energy and just looking at my Calen like. The, as I've progressed in my spiritual journey, one of the things you start getting more aware [00:24:18] of, you're, you're kind of like, it's almost like thinking of you have this core, right? And, and then you're, you're cutting away layers and as you cut away [00:24:27] layers, like, let's think of a layer as, as sort of like, um, attachment to money,

Andrew Warner: Mm-hmm.

Jesse Pujji: right?

For a long time. [00:24:36] One time, one time I said this to Dave, I said, if I don't become a billionaire in my life, it'll have been a waste. And I, and

I believed that.

I fully believed when I started, I fully [00:24:45] believed it,

and I was so attached to like, okay, my worthiness is attached to money, that if I don't make a certain amount, then it's gonna mean that, that I was like, I wasn't worthwhile. [00:24:54] And at one point he got me to, you know, through coaching and stuff, like basically see, like, that can't be true for so many reasons. Like, I don't believe that story. That was just a story I told [00:25:03] myself. But it, there was still, there's still some attachment to money of like, well, I need a certain amount or, you know. And, but there was like, okay, more is better is not true [00:25:12] necessarily. Um, and you're kind of like removing a layer of the truth. And then you could remove an even further layer around it. And as you start to get more [00:25:21] clear, you go, oh, that, that layer's gone of mine. And, and so now the like ember that's inside is burning a little brighter and I can feel it more.

And I'm like, [00:25:30] oh, that's interesting. And so, you know, this, this year in particular, like for the first time in my life I was like. the busy calendar, which I've, I've held for [00:25:39] 15 years, like I'm late to things all the time, like all the stuff of a busy calendar. I was like, this is not exciting for me any, like, I'm not enjoying it. Um, [00:25:48] and that

didn't used to be the

Andrew Warner: what, what am I not enjoying? What doesn't feel right? Let's remove those layers and see what comes

Jesse Pujji: Well, I'm like, oh, I want spaciousness. I want [00:25:57] more time to think. I want to be able to, like, I'm more likely to show up with love and with you if you're upset about something or anybody. If I'm like, if I've got [00:26:06] time to be present, if I'm coming off some other call and then there's a complaint, then I'm like, well, whatever.

Here, do this, do this, do this. Right? And you've known me now for a period of time where you can probably even sense a [00:26:15] behavior change when like last quarter, I was just like a little bit more below the line all the time. Like I was a little bit more on edge, um, relative to what I might've been six months ago or [00:26:24] eight months ago. And so starting to just realize like, man, the calendar just does, it's not serving me anymore. And, and there's, it's very nuance where you almost, in some ways, you wanna be [00:26:33] grateful for that approach that you took for a period. 'cause it got me to where I was. And then also be able to like, let it go and say, it doesn't feel like it's serving me anymore. I'm gonna allow it to [00:26:42] go. And, and so you recognize that it's no longer of service. It didn't mean, again, it wasn't of service for 10 years. Right. [00:26:51] Um, we could have a great car that we drive for a really long time or like, I think about my time in New York and San Francisco as like great periods. And then it was like, okay, I'm like. [00:27:00] I don't, I'm ready to release them now and like this is the next period and I'm gonna move to this new city called St. Louis. And so I think these ways of being are very similar. [00:27:09] And this one for me right now is like, yeah, I could feel that. And then it was like, yeah, Dave's like, yeah, you wanna be a sailboat captain.

Like, and we started talking about what you would [00:27:18] prioritize if you were a sailboat captain.

Andrew Warner: Yeah. What would you.

Jesse Pujji: Well, let's, let's like, let's think about it, right? Like activity is not the, if your motorboat like [00:27:27] activity is the thing, you're like, if your sailboat, you're like, you're thinking more, you might be looking out on the horizon more.

You may be looking at your [00:27:36] navigation guide more because you need to think about the winds and the whatever. I'm not, I don't know how to sail. And then every now and again when it makes sense, you go and make an adjustment. [00:27:45] And then you were patient and then you chill. And like someone who keeps adjusting the sails is probably not a very good sailor.

I don't, I'm not a sailor, but like presumably [00:27:54] they, they shift them in the way the winds are going and then they allow them to take you where there needs to go. Um, and, and

Andrew Warner: Yeah. So in this metaphor it's more like, make a [00:28:03] change, let it go. And then unless it's really off course, you let it go, and then you bring it back to the next, uh, you, you adjust [00:28:12] again versus constantly being at the wheel, constantly

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, like we were talking about, like again, if you're busyness is not the, the priority, you're not, you're not adding more to your [00:28:21] calendar. That's not a sense of how you're valuable when you're a

Andrew Warner: Is that the way that you felt that if your calendar was full, then you were valuable and or at least you're,[00:28:30]

Jesse Pujji: unconsciously for sure. I, I, I

noticed it because when I'd have 30 minute or hour long windows, I'd be like, Hey, what am I doing right now? Like, I, I need to be doing something. Why am I not doing [00:28:39] something? And I could feel that. Um, but, you know, other, like the quality of the impact, if you're, if you're the sailboat captain, the quality of the adjustment is much more important than the [00:28:48] volume or like. Like being able to have one call with you for 20 minutes that unblocks you in some way is way more

valuable than 10 little things that I do, [00:28:57] um, for bg. Right? And then I go, well, what do I need in order to do that? Well, I can't, I can't, I need spaciousness. Right? So it's like you'd prioritize [00:29:06] presence.

You'd, you'd do less as more. You'd have the high quality impacts. You might be know, you might know more information, but you're not necessarily taking more meetings. Like there's a whole set of things that it's, it's a very [00:29:15] different way of being. And then I can say I wanna do it, but I also feel scared because it's not actually my normal, um, it's not my normal way [00:29:24] of, of playing in business.

Andrew Warner: You know, I tried something like that on Thursday. I was going to, before you left for Japan, you said, Andrew, what about a break? And I said, yeah, I guess our [00:29:33] audience needs a break. You go, no, no. I mean, you, are you gonna take a break? Are you going to, so I put on the calendar or break, which was last Thursday, and then I decided I would work anyway.

But I said it's still a break [00:29:42] where everyone else thinks that I'm off, so they're not booking. I'll work on my own. I don't know that I was, as I, I know, I wasn't as productive as if I had everything [00:29:51] scheduled out and if I knew exactly what I was doing. And that made me wonder if I need that pressure of someone else's showing up, someone else requesting something [00:30:00] and working with me.

I don't know. What do you think? I'm looking at your calendar for next week is still pretty full, so maybe you have some of that too.

Jesse Pujji: well, [00:30:09] I don't think I've, I've made the adjustments yet. I mean, that's part of the.

Andrew Warner: Do you worry about that? That you need the pressure to really per [00:30:18] perform to, to show up?

Jesse Pujji: Well, again, I think if you're evaluating yourself as a motorboat driver, again, this goes back to like, what are you, it was like if you're, [00:30:27] if you're, yeah, you, if you, if, if motorboat is the, is the race type, and then yeah, of course you need someone to, [00:30:36] to, to motivate you. But if, if you're, if you're sailing, like it's, it's all about what you're, what are you trying to accomplish? [00:30:45] So it's

not, I think you're still inside the motorboat trying to talk about, well, yeah, if I turn the gas off for a day, that's gonna slow me down. Right. I need a [00:30:54] person there to tell me that, that I need to drive the motor road.

Andrew Warner: Okay. Has there been a time in your life when you did, when you did the [00:31:03] sailboat approach, has there been something that you took that way?

Jesse Pujji: Not really. I mean, there's, there's, there's not a ton of them. You know, it's funny, of all the businesses, the one I've spent the [00:31:12] least time on since we started Gateway X as growth assistant, it's also the biggest.

Andrew Warner: Hmm.

Jesse Pujji: so it's like a funny example of like, um, [00:31:21] motorboat. Sailboat. Like that one's like, I picked the right market.

I found a great person. I gave guidance like. I've been the least involved in that business. [00:31:30] Um, because orig, yeah, so, so that's a funny example, right? And it's been the one, it's like, oh, well you picked the right market, you picked a good business, you had a good person running it, [00:31:39] and it actually took less of your time.

And, and it's big, it's, it's as big, right? And if you, in some ways bootstrap giants, not is the opposite. It's taken the [00:31:48] most of my time, even before you came along. 'cause I was doing content and writing this, like, and it's probably produced the least amount of profit. Right.

Andrew Warner: [00:31:57] Hm.

Jesse Pujji: Um, so I, I think there, there's definitely versions you can see of it where, where like, you know, the, you could [00:32:06] see a version of it where you're like, wait, if you, if you make really good choices, right?

I mean, we could see this in the world. Like they, Figma just went public and [00:32:15] like. Kleiner Perkins is gonna make billions of dollars off of it. Right?

Andrew Warner: Hmm.

Jesse Pujji: anything. They found the founders and wrote a check, right?[00:32:24]

Andrew Warner: Versus the founders who, well, um, wow. It's interesting actually that there wasn't anything [00:32:33] in your life that you were just kind of a sailboat. I looked it up, a sailboat skipper, I guess is what you, you would use, or a helmsman helm. Um, so there [00:32:42] wasn't, so you really are the driving force of a lot of things.

Like a lot of husbands that I know are not the captains at home, their wives [00:32:51] are. I think that's also a very Texas experience.

Jesse Pujji: I think that's true for me, but. Uh, but I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I [00:33:00] think I de, I still do the, like, more is more at home. I'm just not necessarily in charge.

Andrew Warner: what's more and [00:33:09] more? What what's more is more at home.

Jesse Pujji: Like I want the kids in different activities and I want to go travel with them and I wanna, you know.[00:33:18]

Andrew Warner: Yeah. All right. I think I'm getting this new version of Jesse. How do you, how do you

Jesse Pujji: you are. I'm not sure I am.[00:33:27]

Andrew Warner: No, I, I Am I on a, I actually see it very clearly. I see, I see the friction and the challenges with [00:33:36] it. I think the one that stands out the most to me is communicating to other people. How does someone whose user guide says, I've never once said, don't include me on a message.

You've [00:33:45] sent me too many messages. Go from that to suddenly telling people I don't wanna hear and I don't wanna be included and not, not [00:33:54] have people feel what I felt, which is like. Maybe there's something off in our relationship.

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, I don't know. I gotta update my user guide. [00:34:03] You know, it's, and literally that's how it feels internally. It's like I need a software update for myself

Andrew Warner: Right?

Jesse Pujji: that that's

gonna [00:34:12] reflect the current, you know, the hardware, if you will, of my body. I'm like, I don't wanna, I don't know. I don't actually wanna see every message. I actually really [00:34:21] want some synthesized information and I want to figure out how I can be helpful and I can dive in when I need to be told, you know, Hey, dive into this and be helpful, but not, [00:34:30] trying to like make sense out of every single Slack channel and every little message that's coming in.

Andrew Warner: You know, I feel like there, [00:34:39] like we, we in your life would all benefit from seeing what you're doing to grow and how things are changing so that we can [00:34:48] see why you are. Suddenly saying no meetings or why suddenly you're saying, don't call me on a Tuesday or day is Wednesday. Not that you ever say don't ever, [00:34:57] it's, but this, this evolution would be interesting.

We've been doing the build business in public. It would be interesting to see the build the build person in public too.

Jesse Pujji: What would you wanna [00:35:06] know?

Andrew Warner: There's a part of me that, so years ago I hired the best interview producer. I know this [00:35:15] guy Jeremy, uh, kin and. He would look at every transcript of every interview that I did like fast and gimme [00:35:24] incredible feedback. And what he noticed was that, Andrew, you keep looking for the Batman moment, and he says a lot of interviewers do, which is like, you are unsettled unless [00:35:33] you know that this guy became Batman when his parents were shot.

And it doesn't always work that way. But there is this need that I've noticed that people have of. [00:35:42] This is the reason why I am going on this journey. Otherwise, it looks kind of like chaotic, like you're just going somewhere. So there's a part of me that wants the Batman moment of all these evolutions.

Like [00:35:51] one day I came in and there was too big of calendar, and then there's another part of me that wants to see the why and then the what. And [00:36:00] then just be told, look, I'm in experimental mode to, to that I know I'm clearly a person who has a process and is not a crazy, [00:36:09] chaotic person, but I need f. I need to be in, in, in that mode, and here's what I tried today and here's what worked.

You know,

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, I mean, I, [00:36:18] well, I think it's, I'm experimenting constantly. I think that's probably one of my best and maybe worst things. But best thing is like I don't, inertia [00:36:27] generally doesn't, in fact, like I did this calendar thing and I'll, we've done it six months and I'm like, oh, I'm changing the

whole thing guys. I didn't like it and here's why. And it wasn't [00:36:36] working. Now we're gonna try it this way.

Andrew Warner: So that's, that's super fascinating. Like from a business point of view, you saw how much we took Daniel Bus's mess, [00:36:45] uh, like breakdown of his workshop to sales process, and we all looked at it and we analyzed the whole numbers. It's really interesting to see these types of things [00:36:54] just put together. I'll, I'll even give you an example.

When you got into fasting, intermittent fasting, the whole process of, I [00:37:03] went into intermittent fasting to the degree that you wouldn't have, here's what I did, and here's what I learned, and here's what the experience is, and. Who knows. On Monday I might switch to waffles because there's something [00:37:12] else, but I'm gonna tell you that this is what it was.

That is fascinating. Do you know how many people from 8, 3 3 were trying Element and how many people beyond Were trying it because [00:37:21] A, there's a fasting with an element thing that's fascinating. The, I'm going to try to, I have this experiment where I'm gonna try to not show up every day and let the [00:37:30] captains like or do their thing.

I'm gonna be a sailboat captain, however you want to phrase it. That's fascinating. Anyway, I'm, I'm interested in that, that here's my latest experiment. [00:37:39] Here's what I'm finding. I don't know if this will survive, but more of them.

Jesse Pujji: Yeah. I, I don't, it's interesting 'cause I, I'm not sure, [00:37:48] I'm not sure exactly how this will play out. Um, I think the. Uh, yeah, again, [00:37:57] I, I think I've gotten really good at noticing when I'm not excited or energized and then honoring it. I think most people are bad at both of those things. [00:38:06] They don't even notice.

Like, you, you have come to accept a certain amount of like, this is how it has to be, so I'm just gonna live with it. It is just supposed to be this way. And there [00:38:15] are,

there's parts of me, by the way, that feel that way too. There's parts of me that think it's not, it's not allowed that I can. Only work. I could work 20, 30 hours a week and still make a [00:38:24] lot of, you know, like, it doesn't feel right. It feels wrong. Um,

Andrew Warner: get that.

Jesse Pujji: and, but, but I also am like, [00:38:33] man, I like, I see it. I'm like, I'm not energized, I'm not excited about these things and I'm gonna make an adjustment and I'm gonna see what happens and see how it shifts. And, [00:38:42] um, there's a lot of trust involved. I think that's a big part of it, right.

Andrew Warner: Meaning like trust yourself, having [00:38:51] people trust you not to not be flaking out, to not be reneging on

Jesse Pujji: No,

Andrew Warner: implied relationship.

Jesse Pujji: of that. That's, that's, you're still in motorboat mode. That there's a lot [00:39:00] of trust that, like me, me having time let, [00:39:09] like shifting the time and being, let's just say looking at numbers, more engaging on the plans more. Playing the role more of coach [00:39:18] than co-founder, let's say for you, that that's actually going to serve you and the business better than the version of

me that's really involved and really engaged. [00:39:27] And because that second ver the other version is a not trusting version, it's like, well, if I'm not around then, then this will go in the wrong direction. It's like it's, it's kind almost like a form of [00:39:36] CEO micromanagement in some ways. It's not micromanagement, but it's like, it's like double, it's like hovering, you know,

hovering

Andrew Warner: Were you in sailboat [00:39:45] mode when John Oberlander took over? Ush.

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, actually that,

Andrew Warner: Oh, you were? Okay. Good.

Jesse Pujji: I mean, I don't know if I would call it sailboat mode so much as [00:39:54] like abdication, like I was, I was like on the island. Um,

Andrew Warner: Maybe you set 'em up for like [00:40:03] success and so that you could

Jesse Pujji: I don't know about that either. I think he did a I think he did a fantastic

Andrew Warner: You do.

Jesse Pujji: inheriting something that was pretty shaky and [00:40:12] leveling it

Andrew Warner: Hmm. All right. So are you gonna write about this and start to tell people what you're, what you're going through and what you're thinking?[00:40:21]

Jesse Pujji: Yeah, I gotta think more about, I gotta think more about what are the difference between the two? What are the trade offs? What's holding me back? What, what's, you know, what am I afraid of? All, [00:40:30] all these things come down to like what you're afraid of at the end of the day.

Andrew Warner: I like hearing what you're afraid of. You've made me feel more comfortable with like [00:40:39] understanding my fear. I think one of the first things that you do is you go through a list of questions and then you go, can you accept that you're afraid right now? And I go, fucking, freaking A yes I can. Can you [00:40:48] accept that you're a, anyway, I like all that.

I thought I wasn't afraid of anything in business.[00:40:57]

All right.

Jesse Pujji: All right. See Andrew.

Andrew Warner: Thanks Jesse. This was great. See you.